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Post by Meowth! on Jan 14, 2017 18:35:00 GMT
I was reading the Weird Parts thread and thre were some really deep and insightful comments bout Lavender Town, so I was thinking about how Lavender Town is a place where you can just stayy around and get the atmosphere. What other places do you think arre good places to just wait around in the Pokémon games? Even better, does anything make you back-track?
I guess tht the Old Chateau might be intresting to some people? The problem is that some of the stuff doesn't get unlocked until you hardlyy need it in the game world. The Unown cave means you have to leave and entr many times, but I know some of you like the Unown. Maybe when most of them have been unlocked?
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Post by RedGyarados on Jan 17, 2017 2:04:06 GMT
I guess there is some atmosphere to the Unown Ruins! You fall through a hidden door and stuff! It would be more cool if theyy made it more difficult to leave. Weren't there people there or something...?
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Post by v)Luminesce(v on Jan 17, 2017 16:46:05 GMT
Yes, but they all disappear somehow as soon as you enter. Which is slightly weird, if you checked in there first. Agree that exiting that easily might mean that the experience isn't fully taken advantage of. That said, that you can exit after all of those people suddenly disappeared - in an instant - might seem suspect. Perhaps there is something deceptive about Johto?
It is also said in the games that Unown when gathered in notable quantities can have many strange effects, something that the movies also attest to. You are trapped in a place surrounded by multiple Unown that continually attack.
Still, to answer the OP's question.
As noted, the Ruins of Alph do deserve a mention. Apart from the more obvious atmospheric sections, the Unown segment of the area opens with the Pokémon Kabuto, whom you have to assemble the shape of. The Pokémon Kabuto has, in R/B, a movepool which opens with Scratch and Harden - like an etching. However, a while later, it learns the move 'Absorb.' While this might not be entirely how you would hope to characterise the fall, it is in fact what occurs. This is followed by Slash, Leer, and Hydro Pump. Eventually, the later Gym leaders end up with a lot of Water types - for example, most of Pryce's Pokémon, Poliwrath, and Kingdra - with most of these being the major Pokémon of the final Gyms. This can all come to seem quite creepy.
In addition to this, slightly to the South (in Union Cave) and near another entrance to the Ruins of Alph area, it is said that the screams of Pokémon can often be heard. The Unown are also strange for another reason: from the Ruins onwards, the Gym Leaders increasingly start taking on the traits of the Unown - they continually seem to use the same attack, but with incrementing damage if it hits and a weak base level of damage. Which strangely means that the moves' 'power' is hidden. However, a conventional problem in Pokémon is that you are 'paralysed' in attack or forced to continually try attacks until your opponent can sweep you aside - for instance, against a Mewtwo in R/B spamming Amnesia. This is the primary decider in these Gym battles: either they keep on going, but it's futile and their attacks are negated, or you keep going but eventually get washed away. The Unown can hence seem somewhat fatalistic when you are defeated or threatened with this. In any case, however, this hence means that past the Ruins of Alph area, they can retain a sense of 'mystery' and atmosphere. Further, they are as mentioned quite creepy.
It would be interesting to hear other members' experiences of back-tracking and hanging around in locations in the Pokémon games. I'll probably have more to say on this topic as well, but I'll let others respond first.
In another thread, they mentioned a Bermuda Triangle in Pokémon. If there was one, somewhere or the other, you'd have to hope that there was a decent atmosphere (heh) to keep you interested. Otherwise you might drift off... Regardless, that could be of interest or at least slightly uncanny, and there is an abandoned but seemingly intact ship in R/S/E along with a strange, disappearing island.
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Post by FlyingMurkrow on Jan 17, 2017 19:34:32 GMT
Really like the point about Kabuto! I should try lookinng through the Ruins again. Keep you guys posted when I do that!
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Post by Meowth! on Jan 17, 2017 22:34:59 GMT
Agree about Kabuto. Look forward for more input on this thread from you guys.
So I guess for the first games the Safari Zone has a time limitt. Otherwise it might be a nice place to hangg around... Otherwise, strange how the Gym Leaders act like Unown after you meet them! Any other Pokémon that seem to modify those earlier games or things change to be like them?
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Post by Crabhammer on Jan 18, 2017 16:43:17 GMT
Some good pointss in this thread.
The Safari Zone also has some powerful but interesting Pokémon, so they might have figurd it was OP. Still, it wouldd be an interesting place to stay, especially since there's a long journey to get there as well... It's a bit exhausting to have to keep journeying onwards without a time to stay still. If you could use Pokémon in there it would be a good area. Otherwise it is a bit like a mini-game.
Isn'tt it kinda like poaching, though?
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Post by RedGyarados on Jan 19, 2017 17:38:40 GMT
Kinda yeah!
It is annoying that you cantt battle with Pokémon normally there. It sort of wastes some cool wild encounters. It is an interesting place thoughh kinda like Pokémon Crater. But in the games it's annoying.
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Post by v)Luminesce(v on Jan 20, 2017 5:32:08 GMT
...And possibly also unsafe. Are you sure that walking unguarded in a safari with dangerous and offensive creatures, while throwing rocks at them, is a good idea? Not to mention that they're often fast and threatening.
One of the first things you're told is not to wander around in the grass with all of these attacking creatures and bird Pokémon and so on. Then you have an area based essentially around doing just that. To be fair, this doesn't always only apply to the Safari Zone - wild Pokémon throwing around 'Thunder' and with the speed of a Rapidash could well pose a risk to trainers and others, as well as carrying fire around near their bodies. We've gone over similar cases in other threads. That said, in the second generation, where the Safari Zone is closed, you can pretty much 'win' battles by not having any Pokémon.
(In this connection, though, worth mentioning Bulbapedia's description of Rapidash, which sounds troubling:
"Rapidash is an equine Pokémon with four slender legs and black hooves. Its body is cream-colored, and it has a horn on its forehead. It also has small red eyes and pointed ears with red insides. Red and orange flames stream from neck, part of its back, and its fetlocks. Flames also form this Pokémon's tail.
"Rapidash is a very agile Pokémon. It runs at about 150 mph (240 km/h), chasing everything that moves in hopes of racing it. With incredible acceleration, it reaches its top speed in only ten steps. At full gallop, its hooves barely touch the ground. The faster Rapidash go, the longer the swaying flames of its mane will become. At an all-out gallop, its blazing mane sparkles, a feature which is said to enhance its beautiful appearance."
So other than flames forming part of its body, it also runs after all sorts of things with notable acceleration. Not only that, but in the process these flames become even more pronounced. You suspect a trainer might not be able to easily evade this creature.)
Then there's Mt. Silver, by the way, where after being attacked by a horde of Rapidash, you're thrown into an enclosed space with Donphan, ghosts, etc. Is that a particularly good place to stick around?
Still, there are some interesting touches there. Adding a Golduck there prior to the 'ending' is a magnanimous gesture. Strangely, most of the 'gol' Pokémon show up there - Golbat, Goldeen and Golduck - along with its being the apparent 'goal' of this game. There is still plenty of space left for Magikarp, which can have a slight psychological edge or suggests the possibility and fear of failure. Having an image of 'helplessness' or 'hopelessness' in battle near the end is effective. Further, players can use these watery areas to escape from having to face the trainers, allowing space for hesitance and nerves. A Donphan located near the 'end' is also effective in some ways - especially as you might well be hoping for your Pokémon to not 'faint.' In a way, by the time you've reached Red, you've already played out a battle of sorts.
Red is in some ways ineffective, however. They rely on surprise too much. Their lack of dialogue can hence serve if anything as a reprise of how you aren't really informed of their Pokémon's levels - at least explicitly. If you look around, though, there is a Ho-Oh or Lugia at level 70, which you might wish to catch through a Master Ball, and hence you are at least given some indication that you will want to be around or above this level. At the least, some Pokémon will need to be. That Red's Pokémon are slightly above this level is notably highlighted by Red's starting with a Pikachu - one of the starters in R/B/Y, which form 4 of their six Pokémon. Red has a team that could be obtained, mostly, in the Pokémon Yellow main-game - which is slightly strange, given that you wouldn't usually associate them with that game. If you count Eevee, they also have the Rival's starter, which is a Pokémon that you can also get in those games. The 'happiness' mechanic that they use to evolve into Espeon is something of a feature in Yellow - so if you were warned that they had some relation to Yellow, then you would have a good sense of what their team might look like. Further, you can look around Red's house for suggestions as to what they might use, as well as the nearby Trainer House with its level 50 starters as a default. There are a few easier battles: Ghost-types can wall Red's Normal-type and possibly use something like Toxic, and Venusaur's Solar Beam can be stalled with Protect (or just using a fairly high-levelled Typhlosion/Ho-Oh), while Pikachu is also vulnerable to immunity. While this means that the local Misdreavus or Donphan can be a useful addition to the team, Pikachu does have some alternatives, so immunity to it (possibly by using a Ghost-type and Ground type, both of which are present in the area and hence suggested) is mostly just taking a time-wasting tactic to exaggerated lengths. Protect on one or even both of these could help. Nonetheless, it does mean that you could take on Red's earlier Pokémon with just the Pokémon that can be caught in Mt. Silver. A Donphan with Rollout from the area could also be strong, both for stalling Pikachu's attack and building up a strong offence after this. When these Pokémon are said to be strong, this was in some ways not an exaggeration - despite their lower levels. Still, this arrangement is in some ways suspect: Red is said to have trained against them for a while, so why do they still continually seem to run into difficulties with them? Hence, there might seem to be something misleading about this battle.
Humorously, some rumours state that Red can also be encountered in the area looking for a shiny Pikachu. Ash of course used a 'specially prepared' Pikachu to defeat Brock, with some luck and shenanigans. After running into the battle despite awareness of and adherence to the type chart and hence believing that the Pikachu wouldn't do anything to Brock's Pokémon normally. Which seems like cruelty to Pikachu, really. Red is surrounded by Rock/Ground types and such, which can still be effective.
In any case, generally the place itself seems to suggest quite clearly what you should do against Red. It even contains an Ultra Ball and Dire Hit, as if to suggest the utility of the Rollout-Donphans in there; as well as a limitation suggested by the X Accuracy, namely that Rollout relies on continual accuracy and hence might not solve all problems. If you get to set up with Accuracy and Attack boosts on a Pikachu which can't move, or a stalled Snorlax, it can still be highly powerful. This can also occur via Baton Pass, etc. With Red's presentation, we should generally not take their AI for granted, although we can usually assume that it favours super-effective (or at least effective) moves. This need not apply to all of the AI in the game, of course, so such approaches can still be iffy. Nonetheless, types matching those in the area are readily available quite quickly: Geodude can be caught and trained from near the first Route, and a Gastly can be found in Sprout Tower. Strangely, a 'Rapidash' can also be found outside the Mountain, which mirrors the ability of Cyndaquil to get through the early areas quickly. The Pokémon in the mountain, however, tend to be resistant to Typhlosion and so on. Hence, Typhlosion trainers are cautioned somewhat to take their time. The level 70 legendary is a useful indication of what is necessary in the battle, as well as being potentially useful in it - but to get this notable suggestion of what to prepare for, you would presumably have to take an interest in the mysterious regions and areas of the game. This has already been indicated by the Unown of the Ruin of Alph, as well as the various towers of Ecruteak and Violet City. Flying-types are generally a good option here, as well, with the ability to stall opponents or neutralise them.
Hence, Mt. Silver is an interesting place and worth paying attention to for the upcoming battle, even though it might seem immediately unsafe for the trainer in more direct ways. However, it's also highly directional, or a lot of the Pokémon seem to build up tension for the battle. Hence, it might not be as useful atmospherically as some of the others - you're going to want to have 'lingered' in places before this to build up a sense of the atmosphere and experience of the game in order to get as much as possible out of this region. Red's Pokémon in some ways resemble either Cal's team, or the trainers on the path leading to Victory Road. The Pikachu can provide a fairly easy route to victory, due to its one-dimensional nature, through a combination of Protect/Detect and type immunities themselves prominent in the area - but then you're basically relying on the types present in the Mount itself to get the free time to set up. In any case, even if you don't do anything elaborate, Pikachu's use of Quick Attack against a Rock/Ground type you've trained for a while should give it time to set up; and, with Protect, they can only use it a maximum of 15 times, which if it's inaccurate or not that damaging might be quite mild and give you almost indefinite free time. Even Espeon has an immunity to deal with - it uses Psychic almost constantly, and switching a Dark-type in can easily intercept this. Mud-Slap has low PP and doesn't do much damage, but does mean you'll usually want to be able to survive a hit - though Espeon's low defence and HP might mean that you could dispatch of it with a Feraligatr's Crunch, or even a Sneasel. A Murkrow would be useful there, having two immunities to Espeon's attacks. A Ghost-type could mop up the rest. Strangely, your red-haired rival - who also goes off to train in a mountain, Mt. Moon - eventually picks up a team which could be quite effective against Red. You might also encounter them if you use the Elite 4 to train. Hence, they might be useful. Along with the Pokémon of Mt. Silver, they're one of the closest hints to the kinds of Pokémon that might be effective against Red in this battle.
Still, even Red's Pikachu can be a bit creepy. They send this out after you've had to choose between three areas - and might show up when you aren't certain of what their levels are. Their later use of an 'Espeon' might be claiming too much, however.
The problem with Red is that they're somewhat like a more troubling variation on the earlier formula of Gym Leaders. They seem to start with an easier Pokémon, like most Gym Leaders, compared to the ones in store for later. However, this is followed by an Espeon which could either sweep an unprepared team with Psychic, a move with few resistances; or just appear as a weak, fragile Pokémon preparing the way for more powerful Pokémon later. Hence, there's a sense of uncertainty about these. This formula does seem to wander towards the end, however, with the three starters and Snorlax. These shouldn't be unfamiliar by now. You've probably noticed due to the rival battle outside Ilex Forest that you shouldn't take on an opposed starter without adequate preparation. Along with Rock/Ground and Ghost, there are also a few Water-types in there, along with the Fire-type Rapidash outside. As Blastoise has few moves which can do adequate damage to Water-types, a Feraligatr along with a high-levelled Ho-Oh in Pokémon Silver will usually be effective against many others; a Ho-Oh and a Typhlosion can have a notable Blastoise weakness, however, which means that eventually despite the earlier advantage a Cyndaquil will force you to slow down. The other disadvantage of Cyndaquil is that after the easier clearing out of Sprout Tower, Ilex Forest, in part Azalea's Gym, etc., Whitney's Gym might come as a surprise because you haven't considered your approach to such tactics - as you would have to if you faced Bugsy and such otherwise. This depends on how it is used to some extent, however. In general, the earlier Pokémon are navigable by type, but the later ones can be iffy unless you take them down quickly. While you could probably take out many of Red's Pokémon with just a Feraligatr, and two Pokémon from Mt. Silver, nonetheless they can be a challenge; not only could they easily surprise you if you aren't sure of their Pokémon's levels, but if you rush then you're just allowing them to freely switch to the Pokémon with the most chance of causing you trouble. Notably, along with the coverage provided by the three starters (and Pikachu can at least scare birds), they also use the Psychic type with its famed lack of weaknesses, and a Snorlax which is a Normal-type - a type which can cause people problems in this game, despite many earlier Pokémon not tending towards attack. They are hence in effect a stall team, further guarded by the uncertainty of their level jump and types. However, the terrain, your rival and the Trainer House all provide clear indication of possible pathways.
Hence, Mt. Silver isn't just of note for the battle at the end and for continually putting the trainer into dangerous situations. It can have surprisingly impressive elements. However, as it is highly task-centric, getting atmosphere from it outside of this task will be difficult. You will have to set yourself alternative tasks in the area. Still, it is a decent place in some ways. One thing which seems strange is that 'Cal,' from Trainer House, would often not encounter that many difficulties with the area - although they aren't treated as special elsewhere. If they could handle these 'dangerous' Pokémon, you might expect a different reaction. In any case, Cal's notability and resemblance to Red before disappearing into thin air if you use the Mystery Gift system gives them and the Trainer House a sort of weird, spectre-like quality; this is increased by the glitches possible in that area and easily activated. Strangely, precisely by using the Mystery Gift system and hence getting rid of Cal, you can easily glitch the area by modifying the time. There are some other interesting features of Trainer House - for instance, by sending over a 'virus'-esque corruption in a link battle, you can not only have glitch trainers hijack the link battle, but also alter the other person's mailbox and Trainer House without your own being so corrupted.
In general, shiny-hunting can either violate or strengthen this atmospheric element. If you're just looking for shinies generally and hijacking locations to do that, you risk somewhat trivialising the locations; however, if you're looking for a specific shiny to use on a run, then waiting around its location for a while can enhance the sense of atmosphere. In that situation, you're not just looking for a shiny for its own sake.
To return to the Safari Zone, I agree with the Pokémon Crater comparison in some ways. If you restored normal encounters, it could be an interesting setting. If it were the setting of the game rather than just a specific area, perhaps you could allow the trainer to enter 'Gym' battles once they've caught a certain number of Pokémon. Alternatively you could do something based on Crater in some way, if you wanted. Crater does have a slight 'safari' feel to it - rather than being forced into wild encounters and having to react, you glimpse a Pokémon and can choose to follow it and battle or just ignore it. This is interesting in some ways: it means that Pokémon are something that turns up along the way, and observed somewhat casually, rather than a perennial focus. At the same time, they might seem less threatening and hence striking while with that kind of simplified interface they might prefer to accentuate that aspect instead. Hence, it's slightly limited. Still, outside of that they do occasionally attempt to supplement the gameplay with slightly exotic forms of 'shiny' Pokémon ('Void' and 'dark' ones, that kind of thing), which can improve this element slightly but aren't necessarily something that can be relied on. The scene around these also make it less about your relation to the game and hence do not get enough attention to have a general effect. The general format of the maps, etc., is highly similar, however. It does seem slightly strange that the Safari Zone is effectively shaped like a window in an internet game (a series of squares), nonetheless with Pokémon Crater there's a fairly direct reason for looking that way. Which might explain why so many Pokémon Crater players are perennially frozen in place, they ran out of steps or they're attempting an entrance soft-reset glitch.
I'll let others give feed-back on the Pokémon first. Anyway, although the Safari Zone is interesting, the step count does mean that you have to leave sooner or later - unless you circumvent this in some manner. Hence, it might be worth discussing places where this kind of limit isn't in place. There's probably space for a Safari Zone-themed Hack or two...
(We do have quite a few Hacks around that people are getting ready to post, so if you wanted you could just make a basic Safari Zone-themed setting in order to get there fairly early.)
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Post by Crabhammer on Jan 20, 2017 18:47:51 GMT
Good point, you can't stay in the Safari Zone for long enough. It could be a good ROM hack!
The part on Mt. Silver is amazing, I'll have to read that over again. It is kinda creepy how Pikachu shows up after you have to make that choice of rooms, yeah! I'd probably have checked the other rooms first, evn though the whole location is leading to the central one...
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Post by FlyingMurkrow on Jan 20, 2017 18:59:07 GMT
How about Gyms? I guess that there are a few Gyms which have an intresting atmosphere or path, like the ice Gyms or the ones with hidden walls and stuff.
Pryce's Gym is kinda crowded, but I guess you can move around on the Ice area and mostly evadde trainers except on specific tiles. That can get frustrating, though. The structure seems kinda similar to somewhere nearby maybe Mt. Mortar?
The Rocket hideouts might have too many things to do, but I guess the hideout in Mahogany is kinda like this?
Of course a whole, open zone is probably better than this kind of placce, but it's worth mentioning!
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Post by Crabhammer on Jan 20, 2017 19:08:11 GMT
I'm not sure about Mt. Mortar... Maybe someone else can answer that...
The Rocket hideout is a good idea. You are rushed through slightly, but it is kinda an interestting place! Kinda looks weird compared to the rest of the game.
There is a trap thing in one of their hideouts, right? Where Pokémon can appear? An interesting idea, but are the Pokémon supposed to be stronger than the Team Rocket trainers? It is like facing a trainer if you have to deal with like 5 of them, but the trainers in the room are usually given stronger Pokémon!
I'll try to give a write-up of that kind of area like Luminesce has done for the others. It's a good format!
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Post by v)Luminesce(v on Jan 23, 2017 5:07:49 GMT
Pryce's Gym might resemble the nearby Lake of Rage - with the Red Gyarados if you happen to swim up - if that's what you meant.
Mt. Mortar is, as pointed out, a slightly indirect location. There might be some similarity between the winding cave area and the cold path of Pryce's Gym, but the presented layout is different.
Mt. Mortar is in some ways a useful place, as there is a branching path around there including three Gym leaders. If you instead explore Mt. Mortar, you can train somewhat before having to deal with that. However, due to the HM requirements and in general the need for Waterfall, this can be limited. Nonetheless, due to the need for various HMs, it can become a cave which is notable for the journey through it being in many ways a question of interacting with the terrain.
However, the game does seem to set things up to reward players leaving the area be and only looking at it after they obtain Waterfall, which might be slightly too simplistic a scheme and by that point means they will probably find many of the Pokémon there, etc., to seem like filler. This is a problem given that the cave has quite a lot to explore. Still, it can be a slightly poignant time to climb the Waterfall and so on, as the Fighting-type trainer there is from the Kanto region that you are to reach using Waterfall. Despite this, there can still be a sense of having 'no more time' for such areas.
Also of possible interest is that Marill appears in Mt. Mortar, and happens to resemble 'Mortar.' The place seems to bring attention to itself in this way, channeling this popular wannabe-Pikablu in a slightly harsh way, even though it can easily be over-looked or skipped. A mortar is often accompanied by a 'pestle,' just as a Marill is often closely associated with Pikachu.
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Post by DiglettReturns on Jan 26, 2017 10:53:21 GMT
There is a trap thing in one of their hideouts, right? Where Pokémon can appear? An interesting idea, but are the Pokémon supposed to be stronger than the Team Rocket trainers? It is like facing a trainer if you have to deal with like 5 of them, but the trainers in the room are usually given stronger Pokémon! That could be a spooky idea, have something like a trainer but it's just this trap on the ground! If the Pokémon were maybe stronger than the others in the room. If you had to pass through that it couldd be a nice feature, not sure where you would yuse it, though.
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Post by Darkencide on Mar 9, 2017 21:43:35 GMT
Mt. Silver sounds kinda difficult, how would you train for that? Although after reading this thread a bit it seems like it could be slightly straightforwards? But otherwise it could be really difficult/tiring especially if you replayedd...
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